Guest blog: Ross Trudeau on “ability grouping” in Socratic Seminars
Posted: January 7th, 2013 | Author: Michael Goldstein | | 6 Comments »
Mike here. Today I want to turn over the space to Ross Trudeau. Ross came up through Match Corps and our teacher residency. Also we’d play hoops at 6am on Wednesdays.
At the time, great outside shot. Almost won our 3-point charity tournament at Boston U, but some ringer beat him out. Now Ross teaches at KIPP King, in the San Fran Bay area. I’m not sure if his game is rusty from the teaching load, or it’s enhanced by physical proximity to Dell Seth Steph Curry
Okay, down to business. A bit of edu-context first. A few months ago I moderated a panel at Harvard. It was about high-dosage tutoring. One of my friends spoke up from the audience. This guy leads of one of the Massachusetts teachers unions. He said something along the lines of:
These tutoring programs group kids by their current skill or ability level. That makes sense. But often public schoolteachers do not get that chance. They’re told by administrators that this is forbidden. Instead some of my members get told students must be randomly grouped, and supposedly “differentiated.” When can this audience (a mix of policymakers, Harvard scholars, etc) have an honest conversation about that?”
Nobody took him up on it. But I thought it was a good question. A short summary of the tracking issue is here.
A related question is not how are all the kids in a single grade divided into various classes, but how are they essentially “re-divided” within a class? Enter Ross.
I teach English IV. It’s taken by all our 12th graders. Some will soon attend top colleges, some kids have severe learning disabilities, some are proficient but reticent learners, and a large number are current or former English Learner-designees, mostly Latino and Asian.
My principal wants our teachers to teach more Socratic seminars. That’s a class where students are responsible for running a discussion that attempts to answer an essential question about the novel we’re reading.
I’ve struggled before with these classes. The organic nature of seminars gives strong learners the freedom to immediately elevate the dialogue to a level that is not appropriate for all learners. Specifically:
1. With the teacher on the sidelines, the advanced students often use vocabulary and syntax which “English Learners” struggle to understand.
2. Reticent students, regardless of their proficiency level, tend to be muscled out by their more vocal peers.
Ross wasn’t too happy about being nudged by his principal to teach this way. But after some grousing, he stepped up, and came up with this idea.
1. I grouped the most reticent 14 students (based on stats from previous seminars) into the inner circle. These were mostly my struggling learners, interspersed with less-vocal advanced learners.
2. I explicitly stated to the students that they were being homogenously grouped based on how frequently they had contributed to the previous 2 seminars. I took care to explain that people had not been contributing for a variety of reasons, including that they might have been drowned out by the “talkative” students.
3. I described my plan. The essential question for this seminar on a Maya Angelou story called Champion of the World was, “Is it appropriate for an oppressed community to rely on symbolic victories?”
I broke it down into about ten leveled questions, like “What is life like in the deep South for black Americans during this time?” and “What metaphors does Angelou use to describe her characters?”
The first inner circle was to ask and answer these simpler questions — which first check basic comprehension, then check whether students can apply what they learned.
4. When these questions had been answered, including student-created ones which I had not myself anticipated, we’d swap inner and outer circle positions. The more participatory 14 students would work on analysis questions, like “Does Angelou’s diction suggest she approves of or criticizes the community’s behavior?”
Finally they’d address the essential question.
Got it? The more reluctant talkers get the stage first, and hold the stage for half the class. Then those who are typically the hand-raising participants are involved for the second half. So what happened?
I worried some students would be offended or terrified at being separated homogenously into the “first group.” Reticent students could no longer languish (both voluntarily and otherwise) behind the “smart” or “talkative” kids.
Class began.
Silence.
30 seconds. A full minute. Kids chewing their lips.
Then a student said: “Well, the first question is about when the story happens.” Another: “I think it’s after slavery but still a long time ago because of the radio.”
The conversation took off. Among the first inner circle, 100% of the 14 students at least tripled the raw number of contributions they’d made compared to previous seminars. On a subjective level, I observed struggling learners much more eager to answer questions that challenged them appropriately. I also observed formerly reticent students flourish when they realized they were not “competing” for airtime with chatty students that, over the years, they had become latently bitter toward for bogarting the floor.
After we switched circles, and my most eager 14 students had the floor, they realized with humorous rapidity that they were going to have to learn to share. Thus began an unintended exercise in economy and precision of language, no less gratifying than the results from the first circle.
The post-discussion reflection was powerful. I threw my pen in the air, revealed the encouraging participation statistics, and delivered a standing ovation to the class. When I specifically singled out the first inner circle, their outer circle counterparts vigorously joined in on the applause.
Now, this is clearly no Socratic panacea. There remains a ton of work to be done around extending the learning for the first inner circle (I’ve been experimenting with different post-discussion written tasks), as well as shifting leveled question writing responsibilities to the students. I also wonder if there should be some kind of self-selecting promotion system where kids can “experiment” with the other circle. I’m always looking for thought partners, so any comments would be welcome.

Love this, Ross — very creative idea. We’ll try this in Rwanda. Big challenges with reticence among some of our students.
This is a great story. Can think of many ways to adapt it to other topics and even other disciplines.
PS notice that the explanation of “tracking” that you link to is pretty incomplete. Much of the tracking that occurs in high schools is based not on trying to separate students based on what some administrator thinks they are destined for (the old vocational versus business versus college prep). Rather it’s based on what level the students have already achieved. It’s not really “tracking” to say that you have to complete Algebra before you go to Algebra 2, or be able to read at grade level in order to enroll in an AP English class.
What I appreciate about this first round is that you grouped by observation (quantity of participation) rather than imagined progress. You were able to ability-group without stigmatizing students. For future seminars, though, you already anticipate that you may run into issues if the groups stay static.
Let me toss some ideas into the ring:
1. Vary the size of the inner circle.
2. If you are asking tiered questions, ask that some questions be approached individually, some questions tackled in group discussions.
3. Have students take turns asking questions to their group. Give students some guidance on the major ideas or concepts their questions should address.
4. Experiment with the groups? “Everybody who has shoes with shoelaces today in the inner circle?”
I can confirm that Ross has a wicked jumper. Putting him and Kelly Manor on the same team was never a good idea at Brooke open gym.
Ross – are the “first circle” kids allowed to participate and give their two cents about the second circle? I wonder if all the talking at the beginning will raise their confidence and engage their brains enough to want to take part in the higher level questions. I just think it’s a shame if they develop that engagement and then can’t jump in. Also, it gives them more incentive to continue focusing on the discussion, rather than checking out. I’ve never run a Socratic seminar in math or science, but I love the idea.
ADE – thanks for the pointers. I’ve got four consecutive weeks of at least one seminar each coming up, so there’s fertile ground for experimentation.
mathteacher (Paul?) – you’re too kind. I never approached Kelly’s deadeye abilities. The solution above is definitely limited, and I do “kick the conversation to the outside” when I believe it’s been framed in a way that is accessible. Problem is, it’s not consistent in terms of getting the first circle into the higher level discussion. I’m also messing around with outer circle kids doing a “silent” conversation using laptops and a googledoc/chat. We’ll see…
This is a clever way of solving the participation imbalance. Another method is to keep the class together but give everyone two or three tokens of some kind. Every time you talk you give up a token. The high participators learn to reflect before spending a token, and the low participators find the field is more clear for them to join the discussion. There’s lots of interesting stuff here on grouping (I prefer that term to “tracking”, as perhaps EB would) and on tiered questions in discussion classes…